October 2, 2010
Immediately after the Ayodhya verdict over Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid, a young man’s chat completely turned me off. “Sir Hindu Jeet Gaye” (Hindus have won)…This was not just a statement, rather reflected the thought process of a generation whom we expect to be progressive. I was all the more ashamed by the tenacity of this idiotic statement since it was coming from an educated person who is also a qualified lawyer. Legality of the judgment and ethics & plurality of the nation apart, the statement reflected an undercurrent of the psyche which still believes India should not move ahead of the medieval act that happened on the fateful day of Dec 6, 1992.
While the country eagerly awaited the verdict on Ayodhya, it was heartening to see the vocal class of India pleading peace and harmony over religious bigotry. If various social networking sites were any indication, the mood of the nation seemed to be in favour of moving ahead of the controversy over temple & mosque that has seen the turnaround of India’s polity in the last two decades. However, the big question remained: Will it be the same goodwill after the verdict? After all, a win-win solution for all the parties (consciously calling them parties and not religion) seemed to be only a wishful thinking.
However, while the questionable verdict was accepted by and large by the nation with an appeal for moving ahead, stray and loose comments in-between has got alarming proportions. It is true that 2010 is not 1992, an entire generation has been exposed to a different and progressive society; there is no devilish P V Narsimha Rao, conspirator L K Advani or idiotic Kalyan Singh at the helm. But then what is more dangerous to the humanity in general and plural character of the nation in particular is the thought & ideology than the individuals.
Coming to the ethics of the dispute and legality of the judgment, I wonder had it been the other way round then whether the fanatic Hindus (who are still vocal with war cry) would have agreed for moving ahead? Moreover, if it is Hindu victory (as believed by a few educated idiots) then why the hell is Hindu Mahasabha challenging it in the apex court? I am myself a devout believer of Lord Rama and believe that he is very much part of the nature, hence exists everywhere. After all, Sanatan Dharma and Vedic Living advocate the worship of even trees of Peepal, Banana and others. The fact of the matter is that Lord Rama’s existence and reputation is today more in danger from his own followers than the followers of other sects fighting over the Babri Masjid rights.
I am equally perplexed by the judgment which, according to me, raises more questions than answers the given dispute. Of course, the three bench judgment itself is divided and a clear answer was only a wishful thinking. However, one wonders whether the illegal demolition of the Babri Masjid has been legalized by the judgment. What would have happened had the mosque not been demolished as yet? Had it then been a legal sanction to the demolition of a religious shrine? What about the constitutional assurance to the minorities that all the religious structures should stand the way they stood at the time of independence?
But I suppose the jurisdiction of the court was confined to the title rights over the land. Under the given circumstances, with Archaeological Survey of India findings also inconclusive, the honorable judges confined their decision over the title rights of the land only. However, the socio-political nature of the dispute demanded that the state should have intervened over the issue to not only address the issue but also set a precedent.
Had there been a timely state intervention, it would have saved Lord Rama being victimized, traumatized and de-glorified. May be a national monument on the disputed site would have done no harm to the reputation and international image of India. It would have also acted as a deterrent to the lumpen fanatics who think Ram Janmabhoomi judgment is the run-up to Krishna Janmabhoomi. Most importantly, India would have really moved ahead in the true sense of the term.
While the country eagerly awaited the verdict on Ayodhya, it was heartening to see the vocal class of India pleading peace and harmony over religious bigotry. If various social networking sites were any indication, the mood of the nation seemed to be in favour of moving ahead of the controversy over temple & mosque that has seen the turnaround of India’s polity in the last two decades. However, the big question remained: Will it be the same goodwill after the verdict? After all, a win-win solution for all the parties (consciously calling them parties and not religion) seemed to be only a wishful thinking.
However, while the questionable verdict was accepted by and large by the nation with an appeal for moving ahead, stray and loose comments in-between has got alarming proportions. It is true that 2010 is not 1992, an entire generation has been exposed to a different and progressive society; there is no devilish P V Narsimha Rao, conspirator L K Advani or idiotic Kalyan Singh at the helm. But then what is more dangerous to the humanity in general and plural character of the nation in particular is the thought & ideology than the individuals.
Coming to the ethics of the dispute and legality of the judgment, I wonder had it been the other way round then whether the fanatic Hindus (who are still vocal with war cry) would have agreed for moving ahead? Moreover, if it is Hindu victory (as believed by a few educated idiots) then why the hell is Hindu Mahasabha challenging it in the apex court? I am myself a devout believer of Lord Rama and believe that he is very much part of the nature, hence exists everywhere. After all, Sanatan Dharma and Vedic Living advocate the worship of even trees of Peepal, Banana and others. The fact of the matter is that Lord Rama’s existence and reputation is today more in danger from his own followers than the followers of other sects fighting over the Babri Masjid rights.
I am equally perplexed by the judgment which, according to me, raises more questions than answers the given dispute. Of course, the three bench judgment itself is divided and a clear answer was only a wishful thinking. However, one wonders whether the illegal demolition of the Babri Masjid has been legalized by the judgment. What would have happened had the mosque not been demolished as yet? Had it then been a legal sanction to the demolition of a religious shrine? What about the constitutional assurance to the minorities that all the religious structures should stand the way they stood at the time of independence?
But I suppose the jurisdiction of the court was confined to the title rights over the land. Under the given circumstances, with Archaeological Survey of India findings also inconclusive, the honorable judges confined their decision over the title rights of the land only. However, the socio-political nature of the dispute demanded that the state should have intervened over the issue to not only address the issue but also set a precedent.
Had there been a timely state intervention, it would have saved Lord Rama being victimized, traumatized and de-glorified. May be a national monument on the disputed site would have done no harm to the reputation and international image of India. It would have also acted as a deterrent to the lumpen fanatics who think Ram Janmabhoomi judgment is the run-up to Krishna Janmabhoomi. Most importantly, India would have really moved ahead in the true sense of the term.
18 comments:
India would have really moved ahead
arre sir...chaliye hum idiot hee sahee...par abhee agar aapmein bauddhik paurush leshmaatra bhee shesh ho toh humaare well-chosen comments kaa jawaab deejiye
As a lawyer I believe that it is the vindication of a hindu position for the simple reason that the suits filed by the sunni waqf board were dismissed as time-barred...this is what our lawyers pleaded...nd this contention was accepted...hence, the exultation. I do not know where you detected the bigotry. The verdict is being appealed for the simple reason that there are some sections of our brethren that believe that the same is not yet complete. But as the better part of our contentions is accepted, the victory is complete. I have always advocated peace and harmony and also believe that human life is sacrosanct. To call LK Advani a conspirator would amount to defamation. The criminal conspiracy charges against him have been dropped by the rae bareli courts. Please check for yourself. PV Narasimha Rao is no more. He is the one who guided us towards economic reforms, the fruits of which we are reaping today. In any case, his culpability in the demolition has never even been contended by anyone. Why call him devilish unnecessarily? maybe lackeys of the gandhi family like yourself do not like the fact that he was greater than rahul is ever going to be...nd sir, the criminal cases against the babri accused are still going on...the court cannot and did not acquit any of the accused...the demolition was a criminal act...let the law take its on course...do not mix issues...but the title suits do predate the demolition...and the court's direction to excavate UNDER the disputed structure would still have been carried out...no such constitutional guarantee as referred by you has been give to 'minorities' under the Constitution of India...maybe article 49 refers to the protection of monuments but that being a directive principle of state policy is not at all a guarantee to any community at all...and is merely a non-justiciable direction to the government of india...please brush up your constitutional law...also, the asi has clearly said that there was indeed a hindu religious structure under the mosque...dunno where is the inconclusiveness in this?
Also, lastly, I do not think there is any precedent of land acquisition by the state on such a basis...nd a central act which attempted to do something on these lines by discontinuing the title suits by way of central legislative fiat has been struck down by the supreme court in the past...
sir, please do publish an effective rejoinder to my reply...otherwise i shall be constrained to come to the inescapable conclusion that you are an utter ignoramus who does not have the intellectual wherewithal to defend his stand
Dear Mr Raghavndra
Feel free to make an opinion on my intellectual wherewithal the way you wish to. I have my own proven intellectual clout where it matters, and it doesn't at all need your certificate. There is absolutely no reason why I should even respond to your comment that surely lacks merit, deleting it is a much better option.
However, I feel like responding to it because I want to make you understand that it is not personal. That was precisely the reason your statement was quoted, and not the name.
My strong reaction was borne out of my commitment to society and my own conviction where certain issues like communalism and casteism are non-negotiable to the extent of being into "Zero Tolerance Zone". And I stand by my conviction that "HIndu Jeet gaye" was an idiotic statement.
As far as verdict is concerned, you better brush up your leagal acumen to understand what is justice and what is arbitration, both in letter and spirit. As noted journalist Vinod Dua rightly termed the verdict as arbitration and not justice. Even ASI report, I am sure you have no even seen the copy, says "it seems" and not it surely was. And that too on the basis of certain broken statues. But that again is not the issue here. The larger issue is what kind of society do you want to promote for future generations??
Your clean cheat to L K Advani is ridiculous, and if that is the yardstick even Laloo Yadav has been given clean chit by the CBI court. Your reference to Rahul Gandhi out of the context again shows an intellectual malaise since I have never written anything about him. He as a politician has very many plus and minus as well. But to say that Narsimha Rao heralded economic reforms again shows lack of depth as far as your understanding of politics and governance is concerned.
I won't outightly blame you for this shallow understanding either. A young guy like you in early '20s has not even seen the era very closely. I have seen it from very very close quarters. Let me tell you the fact that it was India's receding Forex Reserves that was a catalyst to economic reforms. India needed World bank and ADB bail out, for which economic liberalisation was a pre-condition. The whole package was negotiatd on India's behalf by Manmohan Singh.
Any way, feel free to form an opinion about me.
I have nothing personal against you even if I deplore your statement on Ayodhya verdict. If you ever came across with a positive outlook my friendly gesture wil always be there. But if you believe in arguments for the sake of it, henceforth it will no be entertained at all. Choice is all yours young man.
hmm...but sir, of my contention is accepted in a court of law then it is my victory is it not? And btw, the final decision of the Hindu Mahasabha is to file a caveat and not an appeal in the Supreme Court...they believe that they have won...a caveat means that if the other side files an appeal then the caveator is inform me when it is going to be listed so that notice is not issued without giving an opportunity of hearing to the opposite side...so the hindu mahasabha concurs with educated idiots like me and believes that it is a victory
I also do not think that my clean chit to mr advani is ridiculous...there is a difference between someone being given a clean chit by the CBI and if the clean chit is given by a court of law...remember, in lk advani's case, the CBI had done its best to collect proof against him...while in lalu's case, one may assume that the CBI had not been diligent enough...the fact that he has indeed been acquitted by a competent court of law would make you liable for defamation if you term him as the conspirator...I believe communalism and casteism should not be tolerated...we concur on this excellent
I did not quote mr gandhi out of context but perhaps i should have made myself slightly more clear...i was referring to the statement that he had made earlier to the effect of how had someone from his family had been at the helm, then the demolition would not have been carried out...I had heard that you are a big fan of rahul gandhi so, i thought you would concur with him too...
haha...nd I am a top-class graduate from arguably the best law school in india...you should first get to know the definition of arbitration after reading the same from the arbitration and conciliation act of 1996. Also, try to observe a real arbitration proceeding sometime if you can. Then you can yourself know what it is about, and you can tell Mr Vinod Dua as well.
Arbitral proceedings are carried on in pretty much the same was as normal court proceedings even though they are not strictly governed by the civil procedure code and the evidence act (the principles apply for the most part)...one may say that the verdict is slightly outre and a tad less legalistic but to call it unjust when it tries to balance the equitable rights of the parties is naive...also, i am yet to come across a definition of arbitration that enjoins that such a process be divorced from justice...not by the indian supreme court or any other court in the world for that matter...and sir, if you feel that arbitral awards are unjust, the same can be challenged too under Indian law. Hence, they are JUSTICIABLE...if the court feels it is unjust then it is the court's duty to correct it...which means that an arbitral award is supposed to be just in the first place...I do not blame you as you have not studied law...but as a layman please do not bandy about a word, the precise import of which you may be unaware of...I hope your understanding is clear now...
and please brush up your knowledge of ayodhya...quite a few foreign journalists (if i remember correctly marc galanter and mark tully) who were present at the spot have testified to mr advani's helplessness and the manner in which he became uncsonscious when the decidedly criminal act was being carried out...even anju gupta (the IPS officer) in her depositions has clearly stated that mr advani did his best to stop the demolition before being told by others that the same was not possible at that stage...even she has not named him as conspirator and to reiterate the courts and not merely the investigating agency have acquitted him...I do not know how old you were when the demolition took place but you should revisit the contemporary reports a bit more carefully...Also, please read the arbitration act for a bit...I am posting a link to a soft copy of the same http://www.ficci-arbitration.com/htm/acts.pdf
Nd a word on mr rao too...I do not deny that it was the exigencies of India's dire economic situation (brought about due to lack of investment domestic or foreign owing to the policies of the gandhi family and I guess Rahul Ganhi is doing something similar when he is trying to hamper private investment in Orissa)that was when the IMF and World Bank imposed a conditionality that aid would be given to India when the structural adjustment programe would be adopted...mr rao's credit lies in the fact that he chose the correct person to guide the indian economy out of troubled waters...who could do the imf's bidding and yet ensure that the indian economy did not go the way of the asian tigers of south east Asia...he also ensured that the naxalite movement under vinod misra did not become a major menace in bihar...it was under his watch that the ounjab insurgency was finally wiped out...hence, he deserves credit...
haha...you have not read the asi report sir, it does indeed talk about the existence of PILLARS...PILLARS is the clinching argument, it was on that basis that they have come to the conclusion that there indeed was a Hindu temple...by examining the structure of the pillars...I cannot fugure out how you could have missed that
And sir, it is an intellectual discussion, there is nothing personal...nd there is no harm to my mind if it becomes spicy...you are free to delete...but then again, you would be guilty of not responding to my well-chosen arguments that are based on the law of the land (I have quoted my source)...
Sir, and I also request you to go through the summary of conclusions of the report as well
Dear Raghav
First of all I am happy to see that you have understood my point that the discussion/criticism is not personal. I appreciate that. Now let us agree to disagree on many of the issues over here. This is because you are selectively pointing to the facts that you believe in, while ignoring other facts that has a much larger context to the society. Any way, that is what as a lawyer you will do throughout your life. Quoting people and places out of context to prove a point.
By the way, this layman (as you have childishly said) has been a law Student at Delhi University before opting for a more dynamic career in journalism, and hence understand what Caveat means. Thanks any way for explaining it to me. However, I am afraid this is not the court room where most of the cases never reach its logical conclusion because of such esoteric and meaningless arguments.
Moreover, I never knew you are the lawyer of Advani who is threatening me with defamation the second time in as many comments. Ha ha ha…..Ridiculous. I failed to understand whether this is a real threat or childish rigidity to prove a point. Moreover, how much you know the details of fodder scam?? Laloo has also been acquitted in the lower court. But there are issues beyond jurisdiction of the court as well. It is a question of ethics and the direction of a civilized society, which xenophibics want to disrupt. As far as misuse of CBI is concerned, the former CBI Director Joginder Singh has openly said in various TV discussions that he was pressurized by the PMO to file charge sheet against Laloo. Such frame up has not happened with Advani, rather the NDA Government did its best to save him through CBI.
As far as my following is concerned, unlike you I have never allowed my personal preferences to come in the way of what I think is upright and better for the society at large. This is a proven fact by some cases that have been filed against me in recent times. I wish your sources (??) would have given you the complete information about my likes and my convictions. Any way, I don’t even expect that positivity by people for whom winning an argument is the only glory they have been exposed to. Half cooked information is always dangerous. Such mindset also leads you to criticize an eminent journalist like Vinod Dua and quote others like Mark Tully who have only vaguely said what Advani had to say on that. They have never endorsed his stand. Any way, like me Vinod Dua also doesn’t need any certificate of a misguided youngster.
As far as the negative role of Congress is concerned, there is no denying because they have been in power. Unfortunately, BJP supposedly as an alternate proved to be even worse. Right from corruption (party president accepting Rs. 10 notes) to ethics (forming Govt in Jharkhand with same Shibu Soren against whom they stalled Parliament a couple of months back), BJP proved it beyond doubt that they are just poor clones of Congress. When the brain behind of Emergency were with NDA Government, any rational and upright person is left with no choice but to support the lesser evil, Congress.
As far Orissa is concerned, you again need to brush up your facts before shooting to conclusion. Now I come to the basic logic why I don’t want to, and won’t entertain your future comments—
1. Neither will you change your Hitler like xenophobic mindset, nor will I change my progressive outlook.
2. I don’t see a point where we can even agree to disagree.
3. My blog is mostly read by the intelligentsia whose taste I don’t want to spoil with your communal outlook.
4. Why should I allow my blog to be used by a fanatic who has been inherently conditioned to spread the message of hatred?
arre sir, I am enjoying this a lot...I am sure you are too...I love my country and all my countrymen...so please do not call me xenophobic...I take pride in our history and culture and I can never forget that our finest war-hero till date (arguably...there are other contenders as well) was Muslim...so please do not accuse me of spreading xenophobia...I even feel that someday we shall be able to get into an eu type arrangement with our brethren in pak n bangladesh...
very soon...but I do feel that for the simple reason that the ayodhya temple was demolished in the beginning,the hindus do have an equitable right to the disputed piece of land...that is it...I do not know how you can call me xenophobic now...and I do think that what hitler did was abhorrent...utterly...I am not advani's lawyer, nor do I have a very high opinion of him...however, I know for a fact that the top-brass of the bjp or the rss for that matter was unaware of the plan of demolition...one of my distant relatives was part of kalyan singh's government and he was completely taken by surprise by the fact that his government was dismissed on the 7th of december the demolition is most def a criminal act...
nd criminal prosecution will take place...it is sad that it will take very long...but that is a systemic failure
And sir, please I am a lawyer...please do not make me feel like an intellectual harlot...but I do feel that if mr advani is called a conspirator...post acquittal, that would be a defamatory statement to make...but I doubt if anyone would have the time to file a suit or complaint...and
I also think that the arbitration process under the arbitration act is supposed to lead to justice...I have made myself clear on that...I did not know the exact details of the fodder scam as thoroughly as you do...if mr yadav has been acquitted then it is unfair to call him a scamster as well...nd the same goes for mr advani or mr pv narasimha rao...our courts and their judgements have to be respected for they uphold the rule of law...which is a most cherished principle for all of us
I have not gone to orissa...but from reading various newspapers, I do get the impression that mr gandhi has pandered to lobbies that wish to romanticise the poverty of our tribal brethren...they wish that the tribals of india are never lifted out of poverty...I also believe that history tells us that whenever a hitherto largely feudal society decides to embark upon a path of development, then those who have been living on its margins are sometimes given a raw deal...but such a course of action always results in better standards of living than seen before thorughout history...
case in point being the united states of america...which went to war with the primitive indian population...however, we are not the kind of democracy that they were (actually, their founding fathers did not think that highly of democracy either, but that is a diff discussion), hence, we should achieve our goals of industrialisation and wealth creation through persuasion...i think vedanta not being allowed to mine bauxite in the hills was worse for the local economy...
I will just dwell on mr advani for a minute again...mr abhishek singhvi of the congress party did indeed say even after the liberhan commission report that fresh charges would be filed...do you really think that had there been even an iota of proof against mr advani the congress government in power today would have not filed charges against him? I do not think so...fact of the matter is that even anju gupta has not alleged any conspiracy in this
And sir, please I am a lawyer...please do not make me feel like an intellectual harlot...but I do feel that if mr advani is called a conspirator...post acquittal, that would be a defamatory statement to make...but I doubt if anyone would have the time to file a suit or complaint...and
I also think that the arbitration process under the arbitration act is supposed to lead to justice...I have made myself clear on that...I did not know the exact details of the fodder scam as thoroughly as you do...if mr yadav has been acquitted then it is unfair to call him a scamster as well...nd the same goes for mr advani or mr pv narasimha rao...our courts and their judgements have to be respected for they uphold the rule of law...which is a most cherished principle for all of us
I have not gone to orissa...but from reading various newspapers, I do get the impression that mr gandhi has pandered to lobbies that wish to romanticise the poverty of our tribal brethren...they wish that the tribals of india are never lifted out of poverty...I also believe that history tells us that whenever a hitherto largely feudal society decides to embark upon a path of development, then those who have been living on its margins are sometimes given a raw deal...but such a course of action always results in better standards of living than seen before thorughout history...
case in point being the united states of america...which went to war with the primitive indian population...however, we are not the kind of democracy that they were (actually, their founding fathers did not think that highly of democracy either, but that is a diff discussion), hence, we should achieve our goals of industrialisation and wealth creation through persuasion...i think vedanta not being allowed to mine bauxite in the hills was worse for the local economy...
I will just dwell on mr advani for a minute again...mr abhishek singhvi of the congress party did indeed say even after the liberhan commission report that fresh charges would be filed...do you really think that had there been even an iota of proof against mr advani the congress government in power today would have not filed charges against him? I do not think so...fact of the matter is that even anju gupta has not alleged any conspiracy in this
egard...so please do not call him a conspirator in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...just the fact that charges are levelled against you or me does not make us criminals
Sir, on corruption, the record of the bjp and the congress cannot even be compared...the spectrum scam is a case in point...that sir, is the biggest scam in the history of independent india...anything done during the nda regime pales in comparison...apart from that the congress has given us the punjab insurgency (propping up bhindranwale to counter the akalis...
the latter came up in the first place because the congress party ignored the grievances of the sikh community to such an extent that the anandpur resolution had to be passed...that although is a ling debate), we can blame the congress on kashmir (rigged elections in 1987)...and the economic policies of their party which had us lagging behind most of the nations of the world and somehow glorified our sordid poverty...hence, I believe that the congress and the nehru gandhi family have done great damage to this country...I support the BJP as it is the lesser of the two evils...and with respect to corruption...I do not think that it is as bad as it is made out to be...history supports me...the great historian eric hobsbawm tells us how the american railroad corpn was bult by thoroughly corrupt people and yet it was a great achievement of which humankind must be proud , Kairon and company in our own Punjab were thoroughly corrupt men but they did engineer the green revolution...but this is a diff issue altogether
I also think that the economic policies of this government are flawed...the mgnrega (and there is empirical evidence for this) pays people wages for doing thoroughly unproductive work like digging trenches and filling them which has been diverting them from the fields of rich farmers in their own villages and also from the fields of punjab where their labour is required for agricultural growth which has of late not quite been fast enough...although I admit that there is not quite enough empirical evidence to flesh out the connection...
In this regard, I feel that the chattisgarh model under the bjp government of raman singh is much better as it does not interfere with the labour market, it just makes food available at a lower cost to the people...to my mind this is the correct course of action...but this government is populist and sonia n rahul should realise that they are creating a generation of unproductive men and women who are used to wages well beyond their marginal productivity...due to their schemes our fiscal deficit is also increasing which inter alia (we should also factor in the speculators who are having a field day now) is the reason why inflation is skyrocketing...and we have to pay up someday for our fiscal extravagance which we shall be able to (even if we follow John Maynard Keynes) only if we accelerate our growth rate...hence, I feel that this government's economic policies are flawed because it still remains in the awe of pseudo socialist ideas just because they win votes...I do not see anything communal or bigoted in all this...I do now know wherefrom can you deduce that I am a nazi?
I would have replied to your points, had you came up with guts and decency to show your real identity. Failing this, I don't think I should respond to a communal pig who has all the world's time to keep arguing and fight for upholding the dirt called Supremacy in the name of brahmanical social order. Just keep off as this space is meant for intellectuals and not communal filths like you and hence deleting your academic constipation.
The fundamental identity of an idiot is that he will keep arguing, often with fake name and identity. A psychiatric patient in making, so it seems. And to add to it, loads of misconception about his own strength. Bloody not aware of the strength of the other person.
A kick from a lamb never hurts a horse Ravi. Let dogs bark. Keep ignoring. Best remedy for such mentally retards....
You have taken these fanatics head-on even during their own government in power. You have the proven credentials as a gutsy individual with conscience whom nobady can harm. I still remember the fearless Ravi Sinha standing in the ministry even after confronting the NDA minister. I agree with Riya, ignore such people and don't let them get any inch of credibility by even opposing. Your opposition also gives them acceptability.
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